Diesel engine talk at Barrington Diesel Club, a forum to discuss features and problems related to diesel engines, the machines they drive and the people who drive them.

Please provide 8V-71 Detroit Diesel firing order
Email from Ben in India, Feb 10th 2012

Dear Friend,

Thank you very much for uploading the information of V8-71N Detroit Diesel Engine .

It is very useful for me. At present i am working in this engine which was discarded. There is no information plate on it and its powering a 125 KVA Genset.

Would you be kind enough to furnish me the firing order and the part no of the injectors of this engine. 2 of its cylinder is firing less.
I feel that this engine requires Tappet Setting.
I sincerely hope that you will help me out.

Hope to hear from you very soon.

With Regards
Yours truly
Ben

Country: India
City: Assam

Hi Ben

Re: 8v-71 Engine

I'm pleased our site was of assistance to you.

The firing order is shown on the webpage for the 8V-71, and there is also an image there for your orientation. Check this URL in case you're working from an old one:

http://barringtondieselclub.co.za/8V71DetroitDiesel.html
Just in case you don't see it press Ctrl + F5 together to refresh your screen.

The most common injectors are either N60 or N65 for naturally aspirated engines, and N70 for turbo charged engines. If you look on an old injector you'll see a tag on it with one of these numbers, or something similar, Any Detroit stockist should be able to help you with just that number. But if they can't help you, give me the tag number, and I'll give you the correct part number.

Also if you're stuck for anything, we can supply from South Africa or from USA.

If you want more information, just ask.

In the meantime, if you want to say thanks, I'm just getting Facebook started on our web site, but I need some 'Likes' before they give me the proper buttons, so if you're on Facebook, (and your friends can do it too), log into your account then on the Search bar, type in 'Barrington Diesel Club', when the page comes up, 'like' the site. Also you can 'like' anything on the site as well. Simple as that.

That will be most appreciated,

Thanks
Kind Regards
Steve

Ben gave us a 'Like' - Thanks very much Ben

Alan phones in 22nd Sept 2011
ADE 423 vibration

My ADE 423 has just been overhauled and its vibrating terribly, what can the problem be?

Suggestions from BDC 23rd Sept

Hi Alan,

Re: ADE 423 vibration, your telecom 22nd Sept 2011 refers

Please find attached a fault findingchart for the ADE 420 series.
The chart shows 13 possibilities for vibration, but that's normally for vibration that occurs assuming that the engine has been correctly assembled in the first place.

However for assembly faults examine:

Crankshaft weights,

I think you can put them on wrong, but if you do the crankshaft won't turn because there's too little clearance and each weight has a slightly different shape.
I've tried it myself once or twice on different engines, e.g. when checking work in from a crankshaft grinder who sent the weights loose after grinding the shaft, or as a training exercise for apprentices. I can't say its impossible for the 423, but it is unlikely.
If you have the engine stripped, try it; what you are doing is to eliminate one possible cause for your vibration.
A company who balances crankshafts can (cheaply) check if this is a problem, and if it's out of balance.
Let me know.

Main bearing caps,

If mixed up, you will definitely have alignment problems, and maybe vibration problems too.
But caps are normally marked, so the cap has a number and the block has a corresponding number, and the numbers must match on assembly.
It is possible to mix these on certain engines.

Damper,

Make sure the front damper is not physically damaged in any way.
Small indentations, may cause the damper not to function, there is so little internal clearance for viscous dampers.
It is often an overlooked source of vibration.

Flywheel,

The flywheel is often doweled so you can't put it on wrong, but sometimes not, or the dowel is missing or lost during assembly.

Fuel pipes mixed up,

Two or more fuel pipes mixed up and connected to the wrong injectors.

Otherwise you'll have to work through the ADE 13 possible sources of vibrationuntil you find the problem.

Kind Regards

Steve

Alan replies same day

Thank you very much for all your valuable information. I will let you know the outcome, probably Wednesday.

Regards

Alan

4th Oct - Problem found!
Shout for joy!

Hi Steve,
thought that I would keep you in the picture.

I sent the crank, flywheel and vibration damper away for balancing.

When the guy saw the crank he immediately commented that the weights were wrong.

He says that the mechanic doing the work muddled up no 6 and no 9 weights.

Regards

Alan

Thanks Alan, we appreciate your input.

Hi Alan,

Thanks for your feedback, I do appreciate it. I would like to post this conversation onto our weblog, (without revealing your email or company address) as I'm sure it'll be of interest to many people. Let me know.

Kind Regards

Steve

Sept 29th Sept 2011,
Where can I find an American Semi?

Good day Steve,

I am doing a little research in the hope of purchasing a nice classic American Semi from the 60’s going into the 70’s and I was hoping that you could assist.

Image of a Peterbilt with a Detroit engine

Were the Detroit Diesel 8V71 N/T engines used in any significant number in South Africa over the years? What would be the likelihood of finding a piece of Americana fitted with one of these beauty’s here in South Africa at this time?

I have found your website to be most interesting and educational

Kind regards

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

Re: The Great American Semi

Thanks for your interest and acknowledgments.

Very few on-highway vehicles were fitted with Detroit Diesel in South Africa over the years. The railways had a fleet of Eagle buses with 8v-71's, and several local councils ran trash collectors, Internationals, with 6v-53's, but no concentrations of American Semis that I'm aware of.

The 8v-71's in SA were mostly used in industrial or earthmoving applications, and there are still a few around now. Detroit 8v-71 parts are still freely available in South Africa.

Over the years truckers and other enthusiasts did bring in a few semis but they were probably mostly Right Hand Drive units.

I asked a friend of mine, Mick van Rensburg, about your email. Mick has been, inter alia, involved in and still maintains an interest in racing Detroits and other things at the Tarlton race track near Krugersdorp over the years.

Mick has a couple of trucks at Tarlton, I don't know if they will meet an enthusiast's qualification, but he said you can phone him if you want.

Another possible source for a truck would be D&O in Elandsfontein, they have a number of old trucks in their yard. You can speak to Frikkie Odendaal there.

Kind Regards

Steve

Sept 8th 2011,
What is the 3-53 Chamber Volume?

Steve,

Image - 53 Piston and Liner I'm Jeff. I'm working at the Naval Post Graduate School in Monterey, California. I'm trying to find out a rather arcane specification for a Detroit diesel 3-53, 5033-6299. Specifically I'm interested in the clearance volume between the piston and cylinder head when the piston is at TDC. I'm having a difficult time finding this and am hoping you may have this information. I appreciate any help that you can provide, Thank you for your time.

Hi Jeff

Re: 53 Chamber Volume

Thanks for writing. I love these questions. The theory is basically very simple, which once gotten can be applied to all engines. You need engine bore, stroke, and piston ratio for the calculation.

Our website shows:

   53 bore = 3.875 inches
   stroke   = 4.5 inches
   ratio     = 21:1 (for naturally aspirated N engines)

We apply that information as follows:

Cylinder Volume = area*stroke
   = pi*r²*4.5 cu inches
   = 3.1416*(3.875/2)*(3.875/2)*4.5
   = 3.1416*1.9375*1.9375*4.5
   = 53.0696 cu inches (hence the term 53 series engine)

Now, for me, when I use words like simple, easy, I often make a mistake, which I did. I gave Jeff the wrong formula and I had to write to him again to correct it, but I'm not going to give the wrong data again on purpose, so I've had to alter the correspondence here accordingly. Mea culpa.

My 'Auto Math Handbook' defines Chamber Volume as follows:

  Chamber Volume =          Cylinder Volume
                                       Compression ratio - 1.0

Now for the 53 N engines:    = 53.0696
                                                            20

                                                    = 2.65348

For the record here are some of the other relevant formulas used in the 'Auto Math Handbook', I list them to avoid terminology variances and therefore confusion:

Compression ratio =   Cylinder + Chamber Volume
                                       Chamber Volume

Cylinder volume = pi/4 * bore² * stroke

Kind Regards

Hi Steve,

Thank you so much for your help. I greatly appreciate your passion and meticulousness. Regarding the clearance volume of the 3-53, does the curved surface of the piston affect the overall volume, or is that taken into consideration with the compression ratio? Does the 3-53's piston even have a curved surface? I realize some pistons have a curved/warped surface to better mix the fuel when in motion.

Regards,

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Re: Help acknowledgment.

You're welcome, thanks for the acknowledging comments it always makes a difference to receive such.

Re: 53 Piston Dome

I attach a photo of a 53 piston and liner, and another photo taken from the 'Auto Math Handbook' with examples of different domes on pistons.

Yes the domes are always taken into consideration when defining the chamber volume, and there are various methods to measure its volume and to make adjustments to the compression ratio.

Racing enthusiasts are forever playing with compression ratios to get more power or torque. The 'Auto Math Handbook' I've mentioned has a good simple introduction to the subject, that book has been a treasure to me over the years. Published by HPBooks a division of Price Stern, Inc. Los Angeles, California, author John Lawlor 1991/2.

Kind Regards

Sept 7th 2011,
Where can we buy Om447 engines?

Dear Steve.

I was just reading on your website a report on ADE.

So are they shut down now?

Is there a way to buy the old Mercedes Om447 from anyone out of SA? Maybe CA?

Best regards

Werner

Hi Werner

Re: the Om447 and the ADE447

Unfortunately you are correct, ADE does not exist any more except as described in the article you quoted.

The 447 is a much loved engine, but I don't think anyone in the world is making it any more. It seems that the Om457 is going to replace it. Manufacturers are battling to conform to the new and future emission standards in Europe and the USA, and in their efforts to get there we're going to see whole new families of engines around.

The image below was copied from "IDEM - The Iranian Diesel Engine Manufacturing Company" you can get them on the following link:

Iranian Diesel Engine Manufacturing Company

who are making the new engine in Iran.

Image - OM457 engine

Regards buying the Om447 new, I suspect you may find the odd pocket of engines at various dealers especially in Europe where Mercedes are massively strong, but you may need to ask Mercedes (try them in the UK) for a list of OEM's and dealers who purchased large quantities of engines. e.g. 'Toyota in SA were still selling new ADE engines a couple of years after ADE closed'.

Kind Regards

Steve

PS

We can, as others can too, supply you recon ADE447 engines on a one of or two of basis, but you'll battle for more than that.

Sept 7th 2011,
ADE 447TI specs

Please supply us with the specs and interface drawing of a ADE 447 TI engine.

Regards

Name: Christo

Country: South Africa

City: Pretoria

Hi Christo,

Re: ADE 447TI engine

Thanks for your inquiry

I have posted general ADE dimensions and power charts for the 447, 447T and the 447TI onto the website, you can get it at the following link: Links to ADE engine specs

Click for larger image: ADE 447 Spec sheet image

It is the ADE header page of our website. If you don't see it right away - press CTRL + F5 to refresh your screen.

I may have to move it soon though, because it takes too long to load where it is. However it will be there long enough for you to copy and to use. When I change it there will be links to the right pages anyway, so you don't need to worry.

I'm sure as an ADE specialist you know ADE info is difficult to get hold of, and I would like to post more specs on the 447 on to the website, so while I'm writing to you let me ask, have you got a 447 shop manual I can buy or copy?

Trust what I have will be of use to you,

Kind Regards

Steve Barrington

Sept 1st 2011,
Cummins Big Cam - Shims - in the Congo

HI,

Image - Big Cam 400 I would like to know ,on a Cummins big cam 400 hp on the camboxes must it be shimmed for a certain lift ,if what must it be? Can you please advice.

Country: DRC Congo
City: Lubumbashi
Name: Pieter

Hi Pieter,

Re: Big Cam - cam box shims.

Yes, the cam boxes are shimmed, and there are special tools to measure it. Normally if you measure the thickness of the old gaskets (shims) and either don't replace them or replace them with the same thickness gaskets (shims) you'll be OK. The last one I did was 0.050 thou", but cam keys, cam shafts, and cam and roller wear plus push rod length differences guarantee almost every one is different. If you haven't changed the cam or disturbed the cam keys you can try:

Order or borrow the correct tools. (Probably not available in the Congo), otherwise
don't change the gaskets (shims) unless you have to, otherwise
If you still have the old gaskets, and you must replace them, then measure them and replace with new ones to the same thickness.
Last resort try 0.050 (fifty thou of an inch), follow tune up procedures on our web site.
If the engine starts and runs OK then you probably won't have to do anything further, if not, you'll have to get it reset as soon as practical.

Kind Regards

Steve

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the help....their are no shims , as both were stripped totally ,I received it that way

It was lying in barn for a few years,,,,,,,,Let me just give the picture how I end up in the Congo

I came here 5 years ago from bell Equipment, resigned after 3 years,to start an Automotive Machine shop

That's 2 years now,,,,I'm an automotive machinist by trade , although after trade test start working field service On earthmoving,,,,,,,,at 48 set up this setup. I'm the only shop in a vast country,,,, Come visit ,,,,Catch Tiger fish , I'll sent you some interesting photos

Love to, thanks for sharing.

Steve

Aug 27th 2011,
Sailboat - 3-53 fuel Consumption

Feedback: Can anyone give me the GPH used by a naturally aspirated Detroit Diesel 3-53? It is used in a 50 year old sailboat and is running around 1800 rpm.

Is the weight of a naturally aspirated 3-53 about the same as a 3-53T, around 965 pounds?

Thanks

John

Country: USA

City: San Diego

Hi John,

Re: 3-53T weight

3-53T spec-sheet weight = 1000 lbs or 455 Kg

Re: 3-53 fuel consumption

I've extracted the following tables from my notes. I have not checked them against other data, but should nevertheless answer your GPH question.

Those tables are a bit modified now, because while we're busy with it, we might as well update the 3-53 Detroit Diesel Specs at the same time:

3-53 Detroit Diesel Engine Specs, at sea level.

Description	3-53N				Description	3-53T
RPM	1500	2000	2500	2800	RPM	1400	2000	2500
Horse Power SAE	60	78	95	101	Horse Power SAE	82	115	131
Power Kw	45	58	71	75	Power Kw	61	86	98

Torque Ft lbs	202	202	191	184	Torque Ft lbs	229	226	206
Torque Nm	274	274	259	249	Torque Nm	311	306	279

Fuel Consumption rate lbs per HP hour	0.480	0.455	0.440	0.440	Fuel Consumption rate lbs per HP hour	0.410	0.383	0.400
Fuel Consumption litres per hour	15.3	18.9	22.3	23.7	Fuel Consumption litres per hour	17.9	23.5	27.9
Fuel Consumption US gallons per hour	4.04	4.99	5.89	6.26	Fuel Consumption US gallons per hour	4.73	6.21	7.37

Max Toque Ft lbs	205 @ 1560 RPM				Max Toque Ft lbs	312 @ 1600 RPM
Max Toque Nm	278 @ 1560 RPM				Max Toque Nm	423 @ 1600 RPM

3-53 Marine Engine Specs, at sea level.

Description	3-53, Continuous Power			Description	3-53, Rated Shaft Power
RPM	1400	2000	2400	RPM	1400	2000	2500	2800
Continuous (SHP) Shaft HP	47	60	73	Rated (SHP) Shaft HP	50	72	86	92
Rated Shaft Power Kw	35	45	54	Rated Power Kw	37	54	64	69

Continuous - Fuel Consumption litres per hour	11.7	15.1	17.8	RATED SHP - Fuel Consumption litres per hour	14.4	18.5	22.0	23.5
Continuous - Fuel Consumption US gallons per hour	3.1	4.0	4.7	RATED SHP - Fuel Consumption US gallons per hour	3.8	4.9	5.8	6.2

Propeller - Continuous Load HP SAE	15	47	73	Propeller - Shaft HP SAE	12	38	60	92
Propeller - Continuous Load Kw	11	35	54	Propeller - Shaft Load Kw	9	28	45	69

PROPELLER - Fuel Consumption litres per hour	4.9	11.0	18.1	PROPELLER - Fuel Consumption litres per hour	4.9	10.6	17.8	23.5
PROPELLER - Fuel Consumption US gallons per hour	1.3	2.9	4.8	PROPELLER - Fuel Consumption US gallons per hour	1.3	2.8	4.7	6.2

Kind Regards

Steve

Aug 21st 2011,
email problems

Sorry if you're affected,

I'm not quite sure what is happening. Getting a few emails like:

Delivery to the following recipient has been delayed: formbuilder@www.barringtondieselclub.co.za Message will be retried for 3 more day(s)

I will try to recover the affected emails but I don't know how successful I'll be.

In the meantime, just know I intend to reply to every legitimate club query, and if you haven't got your reply, again I apologize, send your query again if you still need an answer.

This time I'll reply by a different method, until we sort the problem out.

Kind Regards

Steve

Aug 16th 2011,
3 x YouTube discs from Johan

Hi Steve,

I hope that Matthew enjoyed it, I know that it is not everyone that enjoys the music of an engine. I have downloaded some more on the old engines and will bring it through one day.

There is a meeting at Vereeniging at the Vaal the first weekend in September, Wheels on the Vaal at the Vaal technicon and there will be old engines, tractors and cars. My intention is to take the Detroit to one of these shows when it is running again one day. Everyone else is collecting old farm engines but no one is really into the old industrial engines, so maybe it will work.

I will keep you up to date what is happening this side.

Regards

Johan.

Hi Johan

Matthew gave me your YouTube discs.

Thank you very much, we greatly value data, discs, workshop manuals, spec sheets and so on.

Once again thanks very much.

Kind Regards

Steve

Aug 16th 2011,
Humphrey needs a minibus engine, and has lots of questions

Hi Humphrey,

Thanks for you inquiry.

I'm glad you're still communicating, but as we get thousands of visitors from all over the world, it is unfortunately not possible to service every inquiry that requires research. We would have no income at all. If you want us to do research, that involves any stuff that's not on the site, you need to become a member.

We will undertake reasonable research for members. Cost of membership is US $ 15, or R 105 per annum.

In the interim, I am going to post your questions on our web log - without of course revealing your ID or email address, if someone wants to contact you I'll first get your authorization.

Let's see what type of response we get.

Kind Regards

Steve

Good day Steve

I hope I find you in good health.

Steve please advise me as I need to buy a 6 cylinder engine for my Toyota Coaster minibus. The engines available on the market are as follows:-

1 HZ ; 1 HDT; 12HT and a 15B. The ideal engine should be capable of delivering more than sufficient power and should be economical on the fuel side.

Further more the service spares should be readily available; and it should be easy to maintain

I value you input greatly

Many thanks

Humphrey

Aug 15th 2011,
Daan needs full ADE 407 & ADE 447 engine specs

Hi Daan,

Thanks for your inquiry.

I have changed the index and added/changed a couple of items to the ADE 407 specs. Crankshaft end play is an important one that was not there.

Regarding the 447 engine - I have not got a workshop manual for this engine, but you can safely use the ADE 407 torques and clearances here. The main differences between the engines are:

ADE 407 is 11.4 liter and the ADE 447 is 11.9 liter
ADE 407 bore is 125.0 mm the ADE 447 is 128 mm
Stroke is the same at 155 mm

Full specs is a bit beyond the scope of what we are trying to do on the web e.g. the 407 full specs (what I have) are 10 detailed pages long. If you want them, please sign up as a member, cost US $15 per annum or R 105.00, & I'll email them to you.

Kind Regards

Steve

Hi Steve,

Please could you send me the full specs for the above engines.

I need all the torque specs, tappet clearance, injector timing, free play on the crank.

Regards,

Daan

Aug 5th 2011,
Needs race car engine

We checked with Chris, he still wanted goods and he wanted to be connected with Jim. We wish them both well.

5th Aug, Jim from Blackpool in England replied:

I still have some parts and complete unit I can throw on your way if you are still looking to make purchase. Do you still want the specified item(s)? What's your telephone number so I can ring you.

Anyone suggest anything?

Question, 20th July 2011, from, Chris, Re: Re-power

Hi Steve

I have a 454 90s Chevy that I use to tow a race car around. Next years national circuit is going to eat the budget on gas alone. I need to try and make the car as economical and durable as possible.

I read people switch the motors into this vehicle Cummins with expensive adapters but easy to setup and duramax no adapters but electrically very difficult.

The gearbox is a 4L80E.

I cannot afford a new engine as much as I would like.
Please advise

Thanks

Chris

July 21st 2011,
Cummins 6BT piston protrusion

date: 21st July 2011, Answer to Trevor - Re: Cummins 6BT piston protrusion above block

Hi Trevor

Max piston protrusion is 0.660mm - you need to cap your pistons.

I will post more 6BT data soon, we are a bit thin on that at present.

Thanks for your interest,

Kind Regards

Question from Trevor, 21st July 2011, Re: 6BT Piston Protrusion

Hi Steve

As per our earlier telephonic conversation can you please furnish me with the maximum permissible clearance between the piston and cylinder block

Mine is currently .075mm

Thanks

Trevor

July 10th 2011,
Fuel dilution in the ADE 407T

Reply - Dan to Steve

Thank you Steve.
Dan

Answer to Dan - Re: Fuel dilution in the ADE 407T

Hi Dan,

Re: Fuel dilution in the ADE 407T

Here's what the manual says about internal fuel leaks:
Check:

High pressure pipe connections
fuel return pipe connections
lift pump diaphragm leakage
injection pump shaft end seals
pump element leak off

Any of the above may cause fuel dilution in the 407, and it is probably one or more of the above.
Kind Regards

Question, July 10th 2011, from Dan - Re:ADE 407T fuel dilution

Steve..

why must diesel mix with the oil in the sump. Is it because of a faulty diesel pump? Or faulty injectors. We had both refurbished. Please assist.
Rgds Dan

July 10th 2011,
16v71T fuel consumption

Reply - Jose to Steve

Thanks for your answer
Good luck
Jose

Answer to Jose - Re: 16v71T fuel consumption

Hi Jose

Re: 16v71T fuel consumption

Important things here are:
Image for: Power and fuel consumption 6-71TI

Our listings are for Industrial engines, it did not say so, so now I have corrected the concerned pages. Your email brought it to my attention - thank you!
For marine engines fuel consumption works differently than from industrial and automotive engines.
There is the basic fuel consumption and there is the propeller load fuel consumption. At low RPMs these are very different, until eventually the two graphs meet at 2500 rpm.
The marine HP is greater than the industrial engine HP, and the max speeds are also greater for marine diesel engines.
Unfortunately I do not have a spec sheet for the 16v-71T marine engine, but I do have one for the 6-71TI, an extract of which I'll attach for you, so that what I'm talking about is illustrated for you.

Kind Regards

Question, July 10th 2011, from Jose - Re: 16V71T fuel consumption

Hello

On your technical charts DD 16V71T fuel consumption is on Liters per hour , at XXX RPM ?
My question is for Marine Engines . They power a Hatteras 65 , 2002 overhaul.
Thanks
Jose

June 9th 2011,
Cummins V8-504 Settings

Answer to Josef - Re: V8-504 Settings

Hi Josef,

These are already on the website.

Locate the "Engines" tab on the scroll down menu.
Click on "Cummins", scroll down until you locate the V8-504 image or link, click on either,
it will take you to the V8-504 data page.
The settings are on that page.

Kind Regards

Question from Josef, June 9th 2011, Re: Cummins V8-504 Settings

Dear Steve

I was wondering whether you have available the setting/timing for the injectors of the above engine. Would appreciate receiving the details to set them.

thanks and best regards
From
Josef

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Please provide 8V-71 Detroit Diesel firing order
Email from Ben in India, Feb 10th 2012